70.24) outcome driven that is the the key thing 973.16) rather than it just being symbolic 974.6) because there's a risk of almost 976.399) reacting because the Trump 978.88) Administration has put down these 980.279) dictates and these executive orders and 983.68) the more that you integrate this into as 986.759) we were saying before culture into 989) structure into leadership rather than 991.24) just seeing it as some kind of external 994.279) facing lens or marketing tool creating 997.519) that clearer governance internally 1000) really really closing that say do Gap 1002.839) makes it a genuine thing and I think 1004.68) that has real impact with your employees 1007.68) your Workforce and also your consumers 1010.92) as well and those actions I think 1014.12) Outlast they become a part of a business 1016.04) strategy and they Outlast any kind of 1018.319) Regulation or regulatory or presidential 1021.199) time frame as well which is really 1022.839) important

look I think they're taking it pretty seriously you especially if it's in the form of an executive order or a regulation then you need to comply with it and even recently we've seen uh I think just a few days ago there was a US Energy CEO's meeting in Houston where president Trump's rhetoric was openly embraced by companies who previously had been championing their ESG credential so there is definitely a shift towards that scaling back but then on the flip side there are clearly longer term implications that need to be thought about whether it's regulatory challenges and other markets or Global competitiveness or even reduced invest interest so I think this kind of rub about balancing short-term policy shift and let's see how shortterm they may be and enduring sustainability Trends uh to maintain resilience I think matters and I think the key thing for here for me is language language matters a lot here we're already hearing a lot less about energy transition and a lot more about energy dominance and energy abundance and I think you'll probably hear companies who are trying to navigate this really challenging and difficult find line particularly with the huge us exposure having to talk about more more about things like clean air and clean water perhaps over green and sustainability

yeah definitely and look I don't think that is confined to the US either it feels like countries the UK as well uh with the cost living crisis and public just feeling generally the pinch the cost of Net Zero is a big debating point you've just heard KY badok leader of the opposition talking about Net Zero and kind of moving away from the 2050 Target even though it was a conservative government that put it in to LW in the first place so I think this is a global Trend but it seems to be exacerbated in the US by the current Administration

I think on the whole that corporates who have rolled back on Dei have broadly been quite uh transparent on what they're doing and if you are going to roll back on Dei I think you have no option but to be transparent because we are surrounded by by um scrutiny by activist um you cannot do these things in secret what I would say is I I think any organization thinking about rolling back on it needs to be very very careful about why they're doing it and need to ask the question what is it you're trying to achieve because actually while rolling back on Dei might please certain people on the right of the political Spectrum um it's not going to please an awful lot of your employees

1024.6) actually you mentioned internal coms 1026.439) there I mean this must be a colossal 1028.959) internal comms challenge for a lot of 1031.76) organizations is have you sort of spoken 1034.28) to to your clients or others in in your 1037) businesses about about internal comms in 1039.76) relation to this and and what that sort 1041.72) of challenge is like at the moment

1276.64) I was going to talk about di hushing 1278.32) actually because it's something that we 1280.159) we we touched on in another recent 1282.24) podcast and it does seem to be 1284.36) increasingly something on the agenda and 1286.12) you mentioned earlier on about the 1287.2) slight change of language that that 1289.039) we're seeing and um so on do you have 1291.039) any thoughts Andrew particularly on on 1293.279) Dei hushing and big corporations playing 1295.6) down their efforts

1364.24) one thing to say is the 1365.88) investment communities move away from 1368.919) ESG has been really notable according to 1370.84) the association of investment companies 1374.24) annual ESG attitudes tracker in October 1377.96) 2024 just 48% of private investors said 1380.559) they consider ESG when investing that 1383.2) was down from 53% in 1383.2 2023 and 66% in 2021 which was probably 1387.48) a high point

1798.399) Trump's huge import tariffs imposed on a 1801.32) number of countries and what we expect 1803.799) is a big trade War coming is is causing 1805.76) a big big headache for a lot of 1807.12) companies um could either of you give 1809.76) any sort of comm's advice that you'd 1812.2) look to give to any clients that are 1814.6) being affected or could potentially be 1816.12) affected by the trade War

thank you so much Mo and Andrew for for taking part and for your insights

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